From mike at slackmail.co.uk Mon Jun 16 15:33:35 2008 From: mike at slackmail.co.uk (Mike Harris) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Dorkbot tommorrow 17/06/08 19h00 Message-ID: <4856EA3F.3080609@slackmail.co.uk> hi all, bit of a cross-post really, but just to let you know that I'm proud to be involved in producing another dorkbot in bristol, which is on tomorrow evening starting at 7PM in the Pervasive Media Studio (above Firehouse Rotisserie, Anchor Square, BS1 5DB). Dorkbot will run until 10PM at the latest. Web: http://www.dorkbot.org/dorkbotbristol/?p=79 A4 Flyer: http://bristol.dorkbot.eu/junedorkflya4a.pdf Following on from the success of the Re-Boot, Re-Launch Dorkbot in May, June?s Dorkbot will be a Show & Tell session: all invited to come along with anything at all to show to everyone else and discuss. Luke's wedding ringTo start off the new ?Show and Tell? session, Luke Jerram will be asking people for input and feedback on his latest projects. Explore ideas of Parabolic Flight, marvel at Luke?s wedding ring that projects pictures, and find out why anyone can play the piano. http://bristol.dorkbot.eu/wiki/index.php/Image:Projecting_wedding_ring...jpg We will be providing some sound equipment and digital projector with Internet connection for those wanting to use this kit, the project accepts SVGA or S-Video input, so please remember to bring your video adaptor with you (especially Mac users with DVI, Mini-DVI, Micro-DVI, etc.) If you?re coming and bringing something along to show us, please fill in the following form to let us know what you?re bringing with you, or otherwise just turn up, and bring your URLs, gadgets or ideas on the night! http://bristol.dorkbot.eu/dorkmeup.php We?ll be streaming it live too us, more information on this at: http://www.dorkbot.org/dorkbotbristol/?page_id=78 Finally you can see our post on upcoming and sign up to the event on Facebook: http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/760079/ http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2362964404&ref=tshttp://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/760079/ Hope to see you there. Mike. -- ---------- Mike Harris Mobile UK: +44 (0) 7811 671 893 Mobile Es: +34 696 763 122 PGP: http://mbharris.co.uk/mike.gpg.pub From andys at bristolwireless.net Wed Jun 18 07:41:40 2008 From: andys at bristolwireless.net (Andy S) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: 2gether08 - Volunteer for free entry Message-ID: <80d25c2b0806180741o46df85fcgb479c0451aa83a21@mail.gmail.com> "2gether08 is a festival of ideas and action. On July 2-3 in London join 300 people to explore how digital technologies can bring us major social benefits." http://2gether08.com/ Apparently also a jolly good networking opportunity - volunteer and get free entry to this otherwise pretty exclusive (read 'expensive'!) do - there will be cocktails on the roof too!! Any takers? A From matthew at m6-it.org Wed Jun 25 03:32:06 2008 From: matthew at m6-it.org (Matthew Edmondson) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> Michelle is telling charity organisations that Linux is too hard/not ready (on the desktop). She makes some good points, but perhaps you guys can make some useful counter points. Sigh. http://www.zenofnptech.org/2008/06/linux-desktops.html Michelle is a typical tech and well listened to in both USA and UK. Constructive flames please : ) -- Matthew Edmondson matthew@M6-IT.org Consultant www.M6-IT.org M6-IT CIC +44 07807487470 Sustainable Third Sector IT solutions. PRINCE2[TM] Project Management Web services * Back-ups * Support * Training & Certification * E-Mail M6-IT is a Community Interest Company, limited by guarantee. Registered in England & Wales, Registration No: 6040154 Northern Office: e-mail richards@m6-it.org Welsh office/Swyddfa Gogledd Cymru: e-mail / e-bost - cymru@M6-IT.org From ben at bristolwireless.net Wed Jun 25 04:15:33 2008 From: ben at bristolwireless.net (Ben Green) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:32:06 +0100, Matthew Edmondson wrote: > Michelle is telling charity organisations that Linux is too hard/not > ready (on the desktop). > > She makes some good points, but perhaps you guys can make some useful > counter points. > > Sigh. > > http://www.zenofnptech.org/2008/06/linux-desktops.html > > > Michelle is a typical tech and well listened to in both USA and UK. > > Constructive flames please > > > : ) > She says: "And, of course, there are some other situations where Linux also shines: kiosks, internet cafes, computer labs and email/web workstations. There isn?t good reason, at this point, *not* to use Linux there." I personally whole heartedly agree with everything she says, the usability problems she has with Linux ARE USABILITY PROBLEMS LINUX HAS, that's just how it is. Because I keep up with kernel and GNU/Linux development I know that a lot of solutions are in the pipeline - live cross kernel driver updates, more hardware vendors on board by the day, but it really isn't there yet. I have always promoted Linux as a "supported system". At St Werbs community centre we provide such a supported system, and in doing that we probably provide the most functional and cheapest internet suite in the region, and can't be far off any other in the country. So, Linux for techies, in supported enviroments, or for a limited set of task (such as those we provide for on our ?50 recycled machine), yes, yes, yes. Linux for non techies' using new laptops with Ubuntu Dodgy Dragon or whatever it's called, really not there yet IMHO. So, really can't argue with that article, plus she's buying a Mac not a Windows machine, so thumbs up there too. If you are going to go proprietary, at least go *nix. That page has a few very lucid comments on it too, worth reading as well as the main text. Cheers, -- >From Ben Green From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Jun 25 06:42:27 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> Message-ID: <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> "Ben Green" wrote: > I personally whole heartedly agree with everything she says, the > usability problems she has with Linux ARE USABILITY PROBLEMS LINUX > HAS, that's just how it is. Because I keep up with kernel and > GNU/Linux development I know that a lot of solutions are in the > pipeline - live cross kernel driver updates, more hardware vendors on > board by the day, but it really isn't there yet. Three random snippets about those "problems" there:- "It should be easy to plug in a new monitor. It should be easy to get wireless, it should be easy to add a new printer. It should be easy to play a DVD." Well, I don't play mainstream DVDs (evil Hollywood's encryption probably causes trouble there, but that's hardly GNU/Linux's fault) but none of the others has caused me much trouble. I do look before I buy hardware, though. "Apple controls the hardware, so there never is a problem with it." I laughed when I read that, but maybe something has changed since I was a tech worker for a Mac-using university department! Do you really agree wholeheartedly that there's never a problem with Apple hardware? "there does not exist a decent usable twitter client for Linux" Erm, twitter's fairly open. I've used both IceWeasel and jabber to update it, as well as a webtv in a hotel room. Why use a specialised client? *ALL* systems share the "usability" problems mentioned in there. If you're not willing to learn how to install a driver or bugfix, you need tech support from people like BW, no matter what platform you're using. If you are willing to learn, the instructions and feedback are much more freely available for GNU/Linux systems than any computer since the Acorns, in my experience. All learning nonprofits should use GNU/Linux desktops as much as they can, as soon as they can. I probably won't comment on the blog itself because it uses reCAPTCHA technology that is awkward for people with imperfect eyesight and hearing (like me) or high browser security settings (like me). Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From ben at bristolwireless.net Wed Jun 25 07:00:59 2008 From: ben at bristolwireless.net (ben@bristolwireless.net) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> Quoting MJ Ray : > "Ben Green" wrote: >> I personally whole heartedly agree with everything she says, the >> usability problems she has with Linux ARE USABILITY PROBLEMS LINUX >> HAS, that's just how it is. Because I keep up with kernel and >> GNU/Linux development I know that a lot of solutions are in the >> pipeline - live cross kernel driver updates, more hardware vendors on >> board by the day, but it really isn't there yet. > > Three random snippets about those "problems" there:- > > "It should be easy to plug in a new monitor. It should be easy to > get wireless, it should be easy to add a new printer. It should be > easy to play a DVD." > > Well, I don't play mainstream DVDs (evil Hollywood's encryption > probably causes trouble there, but that's hardly GNU/Linux's fault) > but none of the others has caused me much trouble. I do look before I > buy hardware, though. > > "Apple controls the hardware, so there never is a problem with it." > > I laughed when I read that, but maybe something has changed since I > was a tech worker for a Mac-using university department! Do you > really agree wholeheartedly that there's never a problem with Apple > hardware? > > "there does not exist a decent usable twitter client for Linux" > > Erm, twitter's fairly open. I've used both IceWeasel and jabber to > update it, as well as a webtv in a hotel room. Why use a specialised > client? Okay, I don't agree with absolutely everything she had to say, but I certainly think that Linux does have some elements of usability that proprietary OSes do, and that people seem to have more luck maintaining their own Mac systems without much support. "It should be easy to get wireless, it should be easy to add a new printer." Now, that is real rub, Linux wireless support is a bit sucky for off the shelf HW, so too for printing. This needs to be sorted out somehow. A further threat is that when inexperienced users can buy hardware with a "Works with Linux" sticker on the box which doesn't actually work (you know, binary blobs on a CD that only work on Red Hat 7 and the like). The Apple thing, yes true, their hardware can be bad too, but the control of the whole production line does tend to make things more acceptable. Twitter, dunno, but there's certainly no shortage in terms of numbers, surely one must be half decent? http://twitter.pbwiki.com/Apps It doesn't matter if things are "Linux's fault", if they are problems then they are problems. == From Ben Green ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mike at slackmail.co.uk Wed Jun 25 08:43:58 2008 From: mike at slackmail.co.uk (Mike Harris) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> Message-ID: <486267BE.4050807@slackmail.co.uk> Dare I get involved .... Some answers to your points MJR, perhaps I should be the nice flamer? M ben@bristolwireless.net wrote: > Quoting MJ Ray : > >> "Ben Green" wrote: >>> I personally whole heartedly agree with everything she says, the >>> usability problems she has with Linux ARE USABILITY PROBLEMS LINUX >>> HAS, that's just how it is. Because I keep up with kernel and >>> GNU/Linux development I know that a lot of solutions are in the >>> pipeline - live cross kernel driver updates, more hardware vendors on >>> board by the day, but it really isn't there yet. >> >> Three random snippets about those "problems" there:- >> >> "It should be easy to plug in a new monitor. It should be easy to >> get wireless, it should be easy to add a new printer. It should be >> easy to play a DVD." >> >> Well, I don't play mainstream DVDs (evil Hollywood's encryption >> probably causes trouble there, but that's hardly GNU/Linux's fault) >> but none of the others has caused me much trouble. I do look before I >> buy hardware, though. No it's not Linux's fault per se, but it's a political issue to do with DRM and region codes, etc. Because Linux is a politicised system, and because I generally attempt to boycott Holywood films, then it's not a problem for me. Most folk are just happy consumers and wish to watch Holywood films with DRM, and in fact don't give a damn about DRM, actually probably don't even know what it is or know why it should be of concern to them; hence the political issue is lost on them, or of no interest to them and it just doesn't damn well work for them. In the interest of an experiment, a young friend lent me South Park Season 2 disc 3. I put it in my laptop loaded up with the latest Ubuntu Studio, Open Movie Player let me play it, and installed the codecs from the restricted set, great. I still can't see anything other than a load of greem blobs, must be still encoded or something. I installed 'ogle', which then failed because it required OSS support, which I don't have. VLC didn't work, gxine neither. So I can't watch South Park boo! I could just buy a DVD player from ASDALs for about 30 quid and be done with it. >> >> "Apple controls the hardware, so there never is a problem with it." >> >> I laughed when I read that, but maybe something has changed since I >> was a tech worker for a Mac-using university department! Do you >> really agree wholeheartedly that there's never a problem with Apple >> hardware? No, no not that at all. Of course all hardware fails, and Apples does. I've had Macs that have been the best, most reliable and resilience machines I ever had, to complete donkeys. I can say that about Dells to, and most manufacturers come to mention it; except Acer who are in my experience dependably crap always. It's obvious to me here she is saying, Apple's hardware works because they build the hardware and then they build the software to work with the hardware. This is true and in my experience OS X does indeed work very well with Apple's hardware. Compare this with Vista or Linux on Apple's hardware, not quite so good. >> >> "there does not exist a decent usable twitter client for Linux" >> >> Erm, twitter's fairly open. I've used both IceWeasel and jabber to >> update it, as well as a webtv in a hotel room. Why use a specialised >> client? Erm, what's twitter? > > Okay, I don't agree with absolutely everything she had to say, but I > certainly think that Linux does have some elements of usability that > proprietary OSes do, and that people seem to have more luck maintaining > their own Mac systems without much support. Absolutely. > > "It should be easy to get wireless, it should be easy to add a new > printer." > > Now, that is real rub, Linux wireless support is a bit sucky for off the > shelf HW, so too for printing. This needs to be sorted out somehow. A > further threat is that when inexperienced users can buy hardware with a > "Works with Linux" sticker on the box which doesn't actually work (you > know, binary blobs on a CD that only work on Red Hat 7 and the like). imho at the moment Linux support for wireless is really coming together, using Ubuntu Studio or 64 Studio as I have tried recently, it pretty much just works out of the box, the little network manager tool is cool and you can connect to open and protected/encrypted networks too without much hassle. So I say that Wifi is pretty much there. It's not as slick as Mac OS X of course, that works like a dream really, but it's a hell of a lot easier to configure than on XP and Vista, which is a mess imho. Printers generally work fine mostly. Some of the really cheap ones aren't so easy, but HP, the leading manufacturer, is very well supported, by HP themselves. My OfficeJet works, fax, printer and scanner. This crappy free Dell printer, required a search on the net, to discover that a Dell Printer 720 is actually a Lexmark z600 and that there were some debian packages available, made by some kind soul into hard rock. They installed and the thing worked. But of course that's a bit tricky for a user, but then so can installing the drivers that came with the printer in windows as well in my experience, otherwise there wouldn't be such a large support industry for it or Mac. > > The Apple thing, yes true, their hardware can be bad too, but the > control of the whole production line does tend to make things more > acceptable. > > Twitter, dunno, but there's certainly no shortage in terms of numbers, > surely one must be half decent? > http://twitter.pbwiki.com/Apps > > It doesn't matter if things are "Linux's fault", if they are problems > then they are problems. > > > == > From Ben Green > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > _______________________________________________ > Bristolwireless mailing list > Bristolwireless@lists.psand.net > http://lists.psand.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bristolwireless > > -- ---------- Mike Harris Mobile UK: +44 (0) 7811 671 893 Mobile Es: +34 696 763 122 PGP: http://mbharris.co.uk/mike.gpg.pub From paulrbarnard at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:48:33 2008 From: paulrbarnard at hotmail.com (Paul Barnard) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> Message-ID: I think MJ Ray is off base with the Mac HW statement. What was referred to was the reliability of interoperation between hardware not the longevity or quality of the HW... On a Mac if you buy and apple product and plug it in it just works without having to install drivers or anything else. Incidentally is a problem for Windoze too... On Jun 25, 2008, at 3:00 PM, ben@bristolwireless.net wrote: > Quoting MJ Ray : > >> "Ben Green" wrote: >>> I personally whole heartedly agree with everything she says, the >>> usability problems she has with Linux ARE USABILITY PROBLEMS LINUX >>> HAS, that's just how it is. Because I keep up with kernel and >>> GNU/Linux development I know that a lot of solutions are in the >>> pipeline - live cross kernel driver updates, more hardware vendors >>> on >>> board by the day, but it really isn't there yet. >> >> Three random snippets about those "problems" there:- >> >> "It should be easy to plug in a new monitor. It should be easy to >> get wireless, it should be easy to add a new printer. It should be >> easy to play a DVD." >> >> Well, I don't play mainstream DVDs (evil Hollywood's encryption >> probably causes trouble there, but that's hardly GNU/Linux's fault) >> but none of the others has caused me much trouble. I do look before I >> buy hardware, though. >> >> "Apple controls the hardware, so there never is a problem with it." >> >> I laughed when I read that, but maybe something has changed since I >> was a tech worker for a Mac-using university department! Do you >> really agree wholeheartedly that there's never a problem with Apple >> hardware? >> >> "there does not exist a decent usable twitter client for Linux" >> >> Erm, twitter's fairly open. I've used both IceWeasel and jabber to >> update it, as well as a webtv in a hotel room. Why use a specialised >> client? > > Okay, I don't agree with absolutely everything she had to say, but I > certainly think that Linux does have some elements of usability that > proprietary OSes do, and that people seem to have more luck > maintaining their own Mac systems without much support. > > "It should be easy to get wireless, it should be easy to add a new > printer." > > Now, that is real rub, Linux wireless support is a bit sucky for off > the shelf HW, so too for printing. This needs to be sorted out > somehow. A further threat is that when inexperienced users can buy > hardware with a "Works with Linux" sticker on the box which doesn't > actually work (you know, binary blobs on a CD that only work on Red > Hat 7 and the like). > > The Apple thing, yes true, their hardware can be bad too, but the > control of the whole production line does tend to make things more > acceptable. > > Twitter, dunno, but there's certainly no shortage in terms of > numbers, surely one must be half decent? > http://twitter.pbwiki.com/Apps > > It doesn't matter if things are "Linux's fault", if they are > problems then they are problems. > > > == > From Ben Green > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > _______________________________________________ > Bristolwireless mailing list > Bristolwireless@lists.psand.net > http://lists.psand.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bristolwireless From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Jun 25 12:19:02 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> Message-ID: <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Paul Barnard wrote: > I think MJ Ray is off base with the Mac HW statement. What was > referred to was the reliability of interoperation between hardware not > the longevity or quality of the HW... On a Mac if you buy and apple > product and plug it in it just works without having to install drivers > or anything else. [...] But only if you buy all your hardware from Apple, right? There is quite a lot of types of hardware for particular tasks that Apple don't even make. Third-party hardware doesn't seem particularly more reliably compatible with Mac than with Linux to me these days. For example, at one of our customers, a tech worker connected up a specialist scanner to their Mac, installed the third-party driver, rebooted and the OS X WebServer started segfaulting... how the heck do you debug that? At least with Linux, you can try to get most hardware working yourself *and* you can check that one program isn't p-ing in the pool. Both the source and the debugging tools and information are probably readily available, which isn't the case with Mac hardware and drivers. That's one reason I believe that freedom is more cost-effective. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Jun 25 12:28:52 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <486267BE.4050807@slackmail.co.uk> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <486267BE.4050807@slackmail.co.uk> Message-ID: <48629c74.c3qdTMXAUVj3ltu8%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Mike Harris wrote: > ben@bristolwireless.net wrote: > >> "Apple controls the hardware, so there never is a problem with it." > >> > >> I laughed when I read that, but maybe something has changed since I > >> was a tech worker for a Mac-using university department! Do you > >> really agree wholeheartedly that there's never a problem with Apple > >> hardware? [...] > It's obvious to me here she is saying, Apple's hardware works because > they build the hardware and then they build the software to work with > the hardware. This is true and in my experience OS X does indeed work > very well with Apple's hardware. Compare this with Vista or Linux on > Apple's hardware, not quite so good. It was obvious to me what she is saying here and I meant my response in that light. Not all Apple hardware was Apple compatible when I was working there, but maybe this has changed, as I wrote! Even then, you still have a problem with non-Apple hardware. I expect someone could be persuaded to produce a range of somethingLinux hardware if the demand and other terms are there. > >> "there does not exist a decent usable twitter client for Linux" > >> > >> Erm, twitter's fairly open. I've used both IceWeasel and jabber to > >> update it, as well as a webtv in a hotel room. Why use a specialised > >> client? > > Erm, what's twitter? A popular (non-free?) microblogging web application at twitter.com. > > "It should be easy to get wireless, it should be easy to add a new > > printer." > > > > Now, that is real rub, Linux wireless support is a bit sucky for off the > > shelf HW, so too for printing. This needs to be sorted out somehow. A > > further threat is that when inexperienced users can buy hardware with a > > "Works with Linux" sticker on the box which doesn't actually work (you > > know, binary blobs on a CD that only work on Red Hat 7 and the like). Well, you can't trust most hardware vendors to be accurate about system compatibility. Sensible people don't expect the tyre companies to be reliable about which tyres are compatible with a car - they look in the car docs for the spec or ask the car maker. Why don't people look at their Linux docs to see which peripherals work with it? But Mac has this same problem, except the system seller is in the hardware market too. Would readers here like a Mac-like hardware seller for Linux, or a Windows-symbol-like approval programme? Puzzled, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From paulrbarnard at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:00:46 2008 From: paulrbarnard at hotmail.com (Paul Barnard) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:19 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > Paul Barnard wrote: >> I think MJ Ray is off base with the Mac HW statement. What was >> referred to was the reliability of interoperation between hardware >> not >> the longevity or quality of the HW... On a Mac if you buy and apple >> product and plug it in it just works without having to install >> drivers >> or anything else. [...] > > But only if you buy all your hardware from Apple, right? There is > quite a lot of types of hardware for particular tasks that Apple don't > even make. Third-party hardware doesn't seem particularly more > reliably compatible with Mac than with Linux to me these days. > They have come a long way. Most things you buy will just plug in and go on a Mac nowadays. There are some obvious exceptions like printers that run only on windoze for example. Generally though it is very much plug and play. I think they have had to do this to survive in the market. > For example, at one of our customers, a tech worker connected up a > specialist scanner to their Mac, installed the third-party driver, > rebooted and the OS X WebServer started segfaulting... how the heck do > you debug that? > There's the problem. Never install the software provided by the manufacturer :-). This is especially true with printers. Apple have built in support for just about everything. Scanners are reasonably well supported but the trick with them is to use the right scanner software, something like VueScan. Sure if you start getting kernel panics or seg faults with Mac you are pretty much stuck. The reality is though that it doesn't happen very often. > At least with Linux, you can try to get most hardware working yourself > *and* you can check that one program isn't p-ing in the pool. Both > the source and the debugging tools and information are probably > readily available, which isn't the case with Mac hardware and drivers. > You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence the thrust of the original analysis > That's one reason I believe that freedom is more cost-effective. > > Regards, > -- > MJ Ray (slef) > Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small > worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ > (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 > > _______________________________________________ > Bristolwireless mailing list > Bristolwireless@lists.psand.net > http://lists.psand.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bristolwireless From mjr at phonecoop.coop Thu Jun 26 06:22:39 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Paul Barnard wrote: > On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:19 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > > But only if you buy all your hardware from Apple, right? There is > > quite a lot of types of hardware for particular tasks that Apple don't > > even make. Third-party hardware doesn't seem particularly more > > reliably compatible with Mac than with Linux to me these days. > > > They have come a long way. Most things you buy will just plug in and > go on a Mac nowadays. There are some obvious exceptions like printers > that run only on windoze for example. Generally though it is very > much plug and play. [...] As others note, most things I buy just plug in and go on Linux. I really don't see much difference now that Mac is Unix underneath, apart from the Mac has a slicker interface, but is harder to debug when needed. > > At least with Linux, you can try to get most hardware working yourself > > *and* you can check that one program isn't p-ing in the pool. Both > > the source and the debugging tools and information are probably > > readily available, which isn't the case with Mac hardware and drivers. > > > You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence > the thrust of the original analysis I often rail against the myth of a need for a computer priesthood. Also, I'm a statistician: what's the basis of that 90% claim? I've no special computer-fixing ability. I've surprisingly little formal education about computer hardware (pretty much none beyond basic electrical safety IIRC). I think more of my success with it comes from being the son of a mechanic/builder/storesman/barman... most people can learn and it's usually hard to break things badly, so look up the basics (now easier than ever on the internet - I used to make trips to the library much more often) and start experimenting! Best wishes, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From matthew at m6-it.org Thu Jun 26 06:53:30 2008 From: matthew at m6-it.org (Matthew Edmondson) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> > > You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence > > the thrust of the original analysis > > I often rail against the myth of a need for a computer priesthood. > Also, I'm a statistician: what's the basis of that 90% claim? > > I've no special computer-fixing ability. I've surprisingly little > formal education about computer hardware (pretty much none beyond > basic electrical safety IIRC). I think more of my success with it > comes from being the son of a mechanic/builder/storesman/barman... > most people can learn and it's usually hard to break things badly, so > look up the basics (now easier than ever on the internet - I used to > make trips to the library much more often) and start experimenting! > Right so it boils down to the bothered vs. cant be bothered what gets me is that we (who can be bothered) are expected to support the IT needs of those who cant be bothered. This is what Michelle's blog is about. She tried, but found (amongst other things) that she cant be bothered anymore. This si the same with many NGO's they don't have the time to be bothered (as users or admins). its also a key factor as to why Microsoft did so well. They recognised this human trait and commercialised it. thanks for the interesting discussion. If there is anymore constructive to be had then I would welcome it. Certainly Michelle blogged again after I fed back to her. http://www.zenofnptech.org/2008/06/what-software-freedom-means-to-me.html So she knows the score and is being realistic. In summary, to my mind, despite all the many wide ranging benefits, most folk cannot be bothered with it UNLESS they are very ethical and/or hackers/fiddlers. Now how do i commercialise this understanding ;) -- Matthew Edmondson matthew@M6-IT.org Consultant www.M6-IT.org M6-IT CIC +44 07807487470 Sustainable Third Sector IT solutions. PRINCE2[TM] Project Management Web services * Back-ups * Support * Training & Certification * E-Mail M6-IT is a Community Interest Company, limited by guarantee. Registered in England & Wales, Registration No: 6040154 Northern Office: e-mail richards@m6-it.org Welsh office/Swyddfa Gogledd Cymru: e-mail / e-bost - cymru@M6-IT.org From needle at haystack.co.uk Thu Jun 26 07:03:42 2008 From: needle at haystack.co.uk (Christian Wach) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> Message-ID: <811A6E7A-2EAD-4289-A5FF-8D31D23A5BBD@haystack.co.uk> On 26 Jun 2008, at 14:53, Matthew Edmondson wrote: > Right so it boils down to the bothered vs. cant be bothered > > what gets me is that we (who can be bothered) are expected to > support the IT needs of those who cant be bothered. Of course, if a Linux desktop takes so long to develop to the point where it has the ease of use an appliance (aside: I find the interfaces on almost all appliances that are more complicated than a toaster to be ridiculously inscrutable, but that's another whole flame-war in itself) then the technology is likely to have moved on so far that the very idea of a desktop computer will seem quaint. /me gets coat From bails at westcomuk.com Thu Jun 26 07:09:02 2008 From: bails at westcomuk.com (bails) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> Message-ID: <4863A2FE.5090606@westcomuk.com> Matthew Edmondson wrote: >>> You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence >>> the thrust of the original analysis >> I often rail against the myth of a need for a computer priesthood. >> Also, I'm a statistician: what's the basis of that 90% claim? >> >> I've no special computer-fixing ability. I've surprisingly little >> formal education about computer hardware (pretty much none beyond >> basic electrical safety IIRC). I think more of my success with it >> comes from being the son of a mechanic/builder/storesman/barman... >> most people can learn and it's usually hard to break things badly, so >> look up the basics (now easier than ever on the internet - I used to >> make trips to the library much more often) and start experimenting! >> > > Right so it boils down to the bothered vs. cant be bothered > > what gets me is that we (who can be bothered) are expected to support > the IT needs of those who cant be bothered. > > This is what Michelle's blog is about. She tried, but found (amongst > other things) that she cant be bothered anymore. This si the same with > many NGO's they don't have the time to be bothered (as users or admins). > > its also a key factor as to why Microsoft did so well. They recognised > this human trait and commercialised it. > > thanks for the interesting discussion. > > If there is anymore constructive to be had then I would welcome it. > > Certainly Michelle blogged again after I fed back to her. > > http://www.zenofnptech.org/2008/06/what-software-freedom-means-to-me.html > > So she knows the score and is being realistic. > > In summary, to my mind, despite all the many wide ranging benefits, most > folk cannot be bothered with it UNLESS they are very ethical and/or > hackers/fiddlers. > > Now how do i commercialise this understanding ;) Easy! Label it as 'green' and you'll have every card carrying trustafarian, child of celebrity jumping straight on your wagon. > > Bails From paulrbarnard at hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 07:30:05 2008 From: paulrbarnard at hotmail.com (Paul Barnard) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Jun 26, 2008, at 2:22 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > Paul Barnard wrote: >> On Jun 25, 2008, at 8:19 PM, MJ Ray wrote: >>> But only if you buy all your hardware from Apple, right? There is >>> quite a lot of types of hardware for particular tasks that Apple >>> don't >>> even make. Third-party hardware doesn't seem particularly more >>> reliably compatible with Mac than with Linux to me these days. >>> >> They have come a long way. Most things you buy will just plug in and >> go on a Mac nowadays. There are some obvious exceptions like >> printers >> that run only on windoze for example. Generally though it is very >> much plug and play. [...] > > As others note, most things I buy just plug in and go on Linux. I > really don't see much difference now that Mac is Unix underneath, > apart from the Mac has a slicker interface, but is harder to debug > when needed. > >>> At least with Linux, you can try to get most hardware working >>> yourself >>> *and* you can check that one program isn't p-ing in the pool. Both >>> the source and the debugging tools and information are probably >>> readily available, which isn't the case with Mac hardware and >>> drivers. >>> >> You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence >> the thrust of the original analysis > > I often rail against the myth of a need for a computer priesthood. > Also, I'm a statistician: what's the basis of that 90% claim? > The statistic uses the same premiss as the fact that 67% of all statistics are made up on the spot ;-) > I've no special computer-fixing ability. I've surprisingly little > formal education about computer hardware (pretty much none beyond > basic electrical safety IIRC). I think more of my success with it > comes from being the son of a mechanic/builder/storesman/barman... > most people can learn and it's usually hard to break things badly, so > look up the basics (now easier than ever on the internet - I used to > make trips to the library much more often) and start experimenting! > > Best wishes, > -- > MJ Ray (slef) > Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small > worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ > (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 > > _______________________________________________ > Bristolwireless mailing list > Bristolwireless@lists.psand.net > http://lists.psand.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bristolwireless From hamish at axiomtech.co.uk Thu Jun 26 07:58:38 2008 From: hamish at axiomtech.co.uk (Hamish) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <4863A2FE.5090606@westcomuk.com> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> <4863A2FE.5090606@westcomuk.com> Message-ID: <1214492318.8242.33.camel@batu> > > Now how do i commercialise this understanding ;) > > Easy! Label it as 'green' and you'll have every card carrying > trustafarian, child of celebrity jumping straight on your wagon. lol I thought that this would be the case too. But as you know its a bit more complex than that. For one thing it seems that a lot of greenies dont like computers, and so have less of an idea about them then other users. This seems to lead to a 'blind' spot with regard to both computer recycling and software ethics. I was and remain surprised by this. To me its bleedin obvious. Anyhow this was highlighted to me during a debrief after the advocacy session at the HUb in London. I was surprised that so few (if any) of the ethical Hub members came to the session. Anyway one of the NGO representatives said to me that ethics are an NGO's employees burden and FS ethics are just one more burden. ;) From mjr at phonecoop.coop Thu Jun 26 09:48:54 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Call for Constructive Flaming In-Reply-To: <4863A2FE.5090606@westcomuk.com> References: <47FF59FC.9050104@gmail.com> <1214389926.6555.5.camel@batu> <48624b43.lwFs2X2oovsSbNTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <20080625150059.esrkkjtn0g4ocoo0@slackmail.co.uk> <48629a26.QRMY6oKiMUS1gOSR%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4863981f.gjD4n/oTT6jH7wY1%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <1214488410.8242.21.camel@batu> <4863A2FE.5090606@westcomuk.com> Message-ID: <4863c876.0iO/YQe+pcSsT2Mi%mjr@phonecoop.coop> > Matthew Edmondson wrote: > > Right so it boils down to the bothered vs. cant be bothered I think that's taking it a bit far, but there may be something like that. It's like what does NGO X do if their van starts spewing black smoke: try to fix it themselves, hire a mechanic, blag a mechanic or buy a new van? > > what gets me is that we (who can be bothered) are expected to support > > the IT needs of those who cant be bothered. I don't mind that. It's when we're expected to support all of them for free that I have problems with that business model ;-) bails wrote: > Easy! Label it as 'green' and you'll have every card carrying > trustafarian, child of celebrity jumping straight on your wagon. That sounds dangerously like MozCorp's current "organic computing" marketing campaign. Because the world needs another label for free software, right? Paul Barnard wrote: > On Jun 26, 2008, at 2:22 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > > Paul Barnard wrote: > >> You might be bale to but the other 90% of the population can't hence > >> the thrust of the original analysis > > > > I often rail against the myth of a need for a computer priesthood. > > Also, I'm a statistician: what's the basis of that 90% claim? > > > The statistic uses the same premiss as the fact that 67% of all > statistics are made up on the spot ;-) "Figures won't lie, but liars will figure." Charles H Grosvenor. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From Helen.Young at seetec.co.uk Mon Jun 30 04:30:10 2008 From: Helen.Young at seetec.co.uk (Helen Young) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Volunteering Message-ID: <34536505CC83274FB78B1F4815B6D42304DA0692@mail.seetec.group> Hello everyone, Nice to 'meet' you all. I hope it is okay for me to ask about this on here, and apologies to anyone for whom this isn't relevant. My name is Helen, and I work for Seetec, a training provider in Bristol city centre, which aims to get people on the New Deal programme back into work through, amongst other things, funding internal and external study for work-related qualifications and finding voluntary work experience placements for our learners. In these, they can gain valuable skills in their chosen industry and give something back to the community at the same time. Quite often, we get jobseekers referred to us looking for opportunities in IT. We've had self-taught computer hardware buffs, who don't have their skills quantified the way businesses want with a qualification and industry experience, programmers with degrees who have had to take some time out to care for loved ones and find everything has moved on when they can return to work and IT support whizzes made redundant by companies who failed to keep their training up-to-date, now struggling to get their foot back in the door. I'm writing to ask whether Bristol Wireless or any other company subscribed to this list could benefit from an extra pair of skilled hands, for free, up to four days a week for anything up to 12 weeks. (Knowle West Web Computers have had a few of our learners come to help out with them, and that's been and continues to be a really positive partnership.) All you would need to do is provide a safe environment for the volunteer to work in and become a referee if they do a good job, and you get the final say as to whom is right for the roles you can offer. We can also help to set up work trials, if any of you have a vacancy one of our learners would be suitable to fill. If you think you could help and could use help or would just like some more information, get in touch with me - Helen.Young@seetec.co.uk - and I'll give you some more details. Kind regards, Helen Helen Young Marketing Co-ordinator Seetec 4th Floor Eagle House Colston Avenue Bristol. BS1 1EN Tel: 0117 9292183 Fax: 0117 9292183 Email: Helen.Young@seetec.co.uk ****************************************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way and notify the sender immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the company, unless specifically stated. ****************************************************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.psand.net/pipermail/bristolwireless/attachments/20080630/a870aead/attachment.html From woodsy at bristolwireless.net Mon Jun 30 04:58:09 2008 From: woodsy at bristolwireless.net (Steve Woods) Date: Wed Aug 27 23:18:13 2008 Subject: BW )(: Volunteering In-Reply-To: <34536505CC83274FB78B1F4815B6D42304DA0692@mail.seetec.group> References: <34536505CC83274FB78B1F4815B6D42304DA0692@mail.seetec.group> Message-ID: <20080630125809.6szdjs78ggwggsk8@slackmail.co.uk> Quoting Helen Young : > Hello everyone, > > > > Nice to 'meet' you all. I hope it is okay for me to ask about this on > here, and apologies to anyone for whom this isn't relevant. > > > > My name is Helen, and I work for Seetec, a training provider in Bristol > city centre, which aims to get people on the New Deal programme back > into work through, amongst other things, funding internal and external > study for work-related qualifications and finding voluntary work > experience placements for our learners. In these, they can gain valuable > skills in their chosen industry and give something back to the community > at the same time. > > > > Quite often, we get jobseekers referred to us looking for opportunities > in IT. We've had self-taught computer hardware buffs, who don't have > their skills quantified the way businesses want with a qualification and > industry experience, programmers with degrees who have had to take some > time out to care for loved ones and find everything has moved on when > they can return to work and IT support whizzes made redundant by > companies who failed to keep their training up-to-date, now struggling > to get their foot back in the door. > > > > I'm writing to ask whether Bristol Wireless or any other company > subscribed to this list could benefit from an extra pair of skilled > hands, for free, up to four days a week for anything up to 12 weeks. > (Knowle West Web Computers have had a few of our learners come to help > out with them, and that's been and continues to be a really positive > partnership.) All you would need to do is provide a safe environment for > the volunteer to work in and become a referee if they do a good job, and > you get the final say as to whom is right for the roles you can offer. > We can also help to set up work trials, if any of you have a vacancy one > of our learners would be suitable to fill. > > > > If you think you could help and could use help or would just like some > more information, get in touch with me - Helen.Young@seetec.co.uk - and > I'll give you some more details. > > > > Kind regards, > > Helen > > > > Helen Young > > Marketing Co-ordinator > > > > Seetec > > 4th Floor > > Eagle House > > Colston Avenue > > Bristol. > > BS1 1EN > > > > Tel: 0117 9292183 > > Fax: 0117 9292183 > > Email: Helen.Young@seetec.co.uk > > > > > ****************************************************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please > delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information > in any way and notify the sender immediately. The contents of this > message may contain personal views which are not the views of the > company, unless specifically stated. > ****************************************************************************************************** > > Do these volunteers come with money attached, I wonder? Babysitting them for 4 days/week is going to mean a lot of work our regulars in the lab. Woodsy ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.